Enthrall Twist, Combat Powerhouse

I ran a game earlier today where one of my player used the Spinner Twist "Enthrall" to subdue an single enemy in combat for the majority of the combat. This worked out well for the group as keeping an enemy locked out of Combat really turned the tide for the players (which I'm all for), but the verbiage of the twist doesn't state it requires an attack roll. So here's my thoughts

Enthrall can not be used in combat, as it requires a target be "Willing to hear what you have to say", at which point the non-combat target would not be aware of their surroundings, only the Spinner while they keep the power going.

or

Keep the power usable in combat, but while the target is enthralled, still aware of what's going on around them.

I don't want to enforce a roll in combat for the power, (as it doesn't state one is needed) as that will, logically, enforce a roll out of combat.

Enthrall is powerful, and I'd like it to stay that way for the players. I'm leaning towards the former the more I think about it, but what do you guys think? Working as Intended, or in need of clarification?

Comments

  • "Willing to hear what you have to say" and "able to hear what you have to say" are very different. In combat, especially if your friends are in combat with my friends, I'm probably not very willing. Whether in combat or out I would think that any antagonism between the Enthraller and the to-be-Enthralled removes that willingness. Maybe all you need, in combat or out, is some sort of social task to grab their attention for a split second so you can begin...setting the hook as it were.
  • See, I picture someone at swordpoint holding his hands up in a non-threatening way and saying "hang on buddy, hear me out for a second..." (player makes roll for social task). The guy with the sword stops for an almost imperceptible second and that's all it takes...the Enthralling begins.

    That one word, "willing", is the key to this conundrum.
  • So you're saying, out of combat, no roll, in combat, roll to "grab their attention"?
  • edited July 2015
    It's a roll to make them willing to listen, which is a little different than just grabbing their attention. I would think any time that the NPC is currently in a state where they are unwilling to listen to the PC that social task should be rolled. In combat or out. It comes down to the GM using fair logic to determine if, given everything going on at that moment, the NPC is truly "willing" as opposed to just able.

    The idea is to keep the Twist from requiring a roll, because that is part of what makes it so cool, while still acknowledging that maybe it doesn't always work. Just grabbing my attention isn't enough, it's my willingness that you need for your Twist to work on me.

    Just think of the last time someone tried to sell you something. You could hear them...but were you really and truly listening?
  • edited August 2015
    I have a single rule. I don't punish players for being clever and intelligent or/and lucky. I let them have their moments of up but then there are moments of downs as well. Every fight doesn;t have to be an epic one for survival and so. Let them roll over some enemies, think themselves powerful and let them drop their guard. They will be surprised when next time they meet a foe who simply will not just lay down and die but make them fight for their lives. As a GM you have the advantage of knowing what they got at their disposal. They don't know, ever, what you will throw their way.

    Make use of GM intrusions (not too much) when you feel fight that is important is cheesed or simply a lot easier than you hoped for. That's your purview.

    Also you could always make a GM intrusion that this artifact backfired on one of them and he enthralled himself and even started fighting for enemy npcs or perhaps if he rolled 1 on defense you could always say he didn't get hit but his artifact got destroyed being in the way of a swing or something. There are countless possibilities.
  • edited August 2015
    Reading Enthrall it does not say "willing to listen" and it is not even language dependent, well it least not in my core book. I think the big draw back is the character "enthralling" can do nothing else...he can not move or defend. If he is attacked and defends himself the effect is broken. Seems that simply forcing the player to make that choice, defend or take the hit is enough penalty.
  • edited August 2015

    Reading Enthrall it does not say "willing to listen" and it is not even language dependent, well it least not in my core book. I think the big draw back is the character "enthralling" can do nothing else...he can not move or defend. If he is attacked and defends himself the effect is broken. Seems that simply forcing the player to make that choice, defend or take the hit is enough penalty.

    Exactly this. That being said the corebook rules are that anytime you do anything at all to someone that would not wish that effect upon themselves, requires an attack roll to work. So....that's all the balancing required. There are no powers in Cypher System games that work against unwilling targets automatically.

    pge. 105 of the corebook "An attack is anything that you do to someone that he doesn't want you to do."

    Attacks always require rolls to hit unless the target number is 0.

    pge. 108 further confirms Enthrall is an attack. "Some attacks, like a serpent’s poisonous bite or a spinner’s Enthrall, have effects other than damage to a stat Pool or shifting the PC on the damage track."

    With that in mind there is nothing overpowered about the ability. They have to roll for it to commence and it ceases the moment they do anything else.
  • AnthonyM said:

    Reading Enthrall it does not say "willing to listen" and it is not even language dependent, well it least not in my core book. I think the big draw back is the character "enthralling" can do nothing else...he can not move or defend. If he is attacked and defends himself the effect is broken. Seems that simply forcing the player to make that choice, defend or take the hit is enough penalty.

    Exactly this. That being said the corebook rules are that anytime you do anything at all to someone that would not wish that effect upon themselves, requires an attack roll to work. So....that's all the balancing required. There are no powers in Cypher System games that work against unwilling targets automatically.

    pge. 105 of the corebook "An attack is anything that you do to someone that he doesn't want you to do."

    Attacks always require rolls to hit unless the target number is 0.

    pge. 108 further confirms Enthrall is an attack. "Some attacks, like a serpent’s poisonous bite or a spinner’s Enthrall, have effects other than damage to a stat Pool or shifting the PC on the damage track."

    With that in mind there is nothing overpowered about the ability. They have to roll for it to commence and it ceases the moment they do anything else.
    Correct, it does not say "willing to hear what you have to say" I was just using that as reasoning for which direction to take the power. your references to page 105 and 108 answer my question though perfectly. With a roll required it's not overpowered, I was just interpreting it as there being no roll required. My mistake.

    Thanks everyone for commenting!
Sign In or Register to comment.